Centre for Monitoring Democratic Processes «Quorum»

You know, at me sufficient experience of dialogue and with this organisation. There do not explain, how after work of observers conclusions become. Do not trust me – believe to words of the deputy of EuroParliament of last convocation of Paul-Marie Kutoux which has resulted such fact. When it was the observer of mission of OSCE the head of mission of that time has asked to sign the total report on Saturday. And elections should take place on Sunday. To it have explained, as so all is clear, give not заморачиваться, on Monday there will be not enough time, all of us part, therefore – quickly, quickly … About similar on the Internet many status participants of missions wrote.« Not status »they at all do not ask – those simply hand over somewhere the materials, and that to them then occurs – do not know. OSCE mission carries out exclusively political order. In whatever state there was a supervision but if in power this state with OSCE management normal relations it is possible to tell with confidence that the conclusion is positive. And on the contrary.

"Customer" of ODIHR is an empire, under the name the European Union. Correctly?

Customer БДиПЧа is an empire under the name the United States of America.

Clearly. But about it is later. So, as far as I understand, you – «supervising behind democracy» on the post-Soviet territory?

I?!

Well, not you personally, and your organisation. But struggle against a lawlessness on elections – a dangerous entertainment. To you got?

And as. And from Kazakhstan, on presidential election of 2005, expelled, and in the Moldavian prison wearied.

And well more in detail, please.

We "were not pleasant" to a mode of president Voronina on parliamentary elections of 2005. They then have agreed from OSCE in advance as «have headed for eurointegration». Воронин met Yushchenko who guaranteed that any «orange revolutions» in Kishinev will not be. In general, all was ready, and it would not like any control. But we have arrived. Many of observers, by the way, at own expense. Us at first have accredited, but when have understood what to agree with us it will not turn out, have started to "hold". Byelorussians, Ukrainians and Petersburgers at all have not let out from cars: have picked up to return structure and have sent home. It has caused diplomatic scandal, as both in Russia, and at Belarus, and at Ukraine with Moldova a visa-free regime. Also know, what the most interesting? Upon an event we have addressed in OSCE mission. In the total report they the WORD have not mentioned problems with observers from the CIS countries, arrived on elections. Elections have been recognised by democratic, tolerant and транспарентными. And at conference in «ИНФОТАГ» (the Moldavian news agency – А.Г.) ordinary participants of mission of OSCE have approached to us from Czechia and Poland which to us have simply told some: «Children, all of us understand, excuse, it is a shame to ourselves, but the report on elections has been written long before elections».

Yes, I remember something. There and you had problems.

Not at once. At first threatened, and I then have tried not to stay simply especially in Moldova.« Left »as at cinema – I had a ticket aboard the plane, but I have not departed, and have gone on the car, through Dnestr region. But the Moldavian power"has caught up"with me later. When in the summer of the same year we were invited by colleagues from the Moldavian human rights organisation« Adzhuta Chivas »to carry out monitoring of elections and a seminar with observers on elections of the mayor of Kishinev, on our representatives (and on me) have arranged an ambush. When we have crossed the pridnestrovsko-Moldavian border, we were grasped by police, has beaten and has seated on chambers in Kaushansky tribunal. On charge in illegal penetration on territory of Moldova (though we had a registration in the city of Tiraspol as which Moldova considers as the). And at the same time – in malicious beating and the insult of advantage of group of the Moldavian police and simple citizens. But when my lawyer tried to find out, who those people who have signed reports it was found out that addresses are invented. Such in the nature it has not appeared. And about people the police has refused to give any information. All has ended with that have kept us in chambers of whom 10, whom 14 days. With all delights of a chamber life: without water, without a toilet, with criminals on 6-7 persons on very small area, with bugs, louses – in general, a full set. And then us deported. And, at our expense. From withdrawn from cash have subtracted the sum for transportation.

Well, and how the Moldavian cops beat?

With pleasure.

Yes, democracy – business thin, and monitoring – dangerous. Therefore – some words about democracy as that. Victor Yushchenko considered as one of achievements of the board freedom and democracy preservation. He, the truth, has never told that he, actually, understands as it. How your way that such "democracy", and in what measure this concept is applicable to conditions of modern Ukraine?

I see that basically democracy in Ukraine exists, it it is impossible to deny. But without accurate observance of the legislation, rules, democracies simply do not happen. Democracy is not only the rights, but also responsibility: the authorities before the people. And the rights belong to the people – the right to supervise the power, to influence it and that the most important to change it. On another. And – choosing from many variants. When one point of view is violently imposed to people is any more absolutely democracy. Recollect that occurred in 2004. It was the pure technology. Constant unilateral pressure upon the country has led to that there was that has occurred – the third round, this ridiculous know-how of the Ukrainian political science. And here now, at a sight at present elections, the impression that the obvious temptation this technology takes place is made to repeat.

I not about that. From the point of view of a dry politological science, there is a weight of forms of democracy – beginning from a straight line Athenian and to a present Russian know-how. I mean «sovereign democracy» Sechina. And so, the idea, the concept of democracy can serve your way as the geopolitics tool, means of domination of any country over any territory?

Certainly. Having looked a contemporary history of our planet, we will see that the rhetoric round democracy is the effective tool of influence on the geopolitical opponents. Because under this business as have shown events in the same Iraq, it is possible to write off everything, everything. By a principle: «We struggle for democracy and …».

… also we fly to you?

Yes-yes. «You do not have democracy – wait, already we suspend bombs». As though who concerned our prime minister Vladimir Vladimirovichu, he has correctly told: «We against at us built such democracy, as in Iraq».

That is democracy standards not is something settled, and in each case it is possible to speak about different democracies, whether that?

Is not present – about different forms of regulation of processes of will. Look at legislative systems of countries of Western Europe which are considered ideal, «old democracies». There it is possible to find much that that that corresponds to an ideal, but also documents which they have signed as members of OSCE. In Great Britain, say, there is no such concept, as "observer". That is, if to the countries, the people «to the east of Vienna», this institute is simply imposed, England, obviously, above it. And I will notice that observers from the countries «to the east of Vienna» interest nobody. Observers who do not have financing from Bruxelles, Warsaw or Washington, too in calculation do not undertake. The main observers – that «». And it very much a question of principle. Well, excuse, why in Great Britain there are no observers, if it «a basis of bases»? In Denmark there is a property qualification. In Belgium there is a compulsory lifting of an appearance: if you do not vote – you fine. At you Timoshenko accuses Yanukovych that it organises certain «подвозы». But same anything in comparison with penalties. Here to people help to vote, and there them fine for absence. And there was system «double standards» when one, what it did, always out of any criticism. And another – always bad. Until this "bad" will not transfer some functions of management in the own country to the external managing director.

And what «out of any criticism», Washington and «the countries of Bruxelles», they as, are uniform? Or between them there are contradictions?

Well it is final, exist. I was amazed with one episode which witness I was in 2007 in Vienna, on one of the actions spent БДиПЧ in the headquarters. They have invited representatives of the non-governmental organisations from the various countries, Europeans Initiated this meeting. They people intelligent and so топорно to work, as Americans, do not want. Not that that are not able – simply do not want.

Europeans love dialogues?

Yes, till time while bombs load. But the main violin this meeting, strangely enough, was played by Americans. As a part of the American delegation there was an assistant to the state secretary David Kramer. To its behaviour were surprised all. It roughly interrupted the chairman, and to the Russian delegation tried not to let at all speak. Has reached type phrases:« And your opinion here in general interests nobody ». But us"to become silent"difficult, besides the delegation was Russian-Polish. It is possible and not to listen To us, but it was necessary to listen to allies of Poles. Not to frighten off. And so, conversation has come that standards ODIHR were written even at the time of« cold war »and for a long time have become outdated. After all how criticised those systems which have developed on the post-Soviet territory and in the Eastern Europe, all of them it is equal in the basis the democratic. There are any deviations, but all is a matter of time. The main thing – is not present totalitarian modes, the states aspire to develop in a democratic direction. That way which they have taken place for 14-18 years – to it and in the West still to someone will learn it is necessary. It is an enormous way –« from Honnekera to Merkel ». And to work in frameworks which existed at« the Iron Curtain "and" an empire of evil », simply incorrectly. On what Kramer has declared that your opinion here in general nobody asks, and gold standards were written not by you, and not to you here something to change. That we have put, remains once and for all. Want – are reconciled with it, want – are not reconciled, but it was, is and will be.

It literally?

Practically – yes.

But, obviously, Kramer was right. When behind the democracy standard there is a navy fleet of the USA they somehow imperceptibly become "gold" and not subject to discussion.

Perhaps. But the civil society then is not obliged to play with them in these games. If they want such democracy as in Serbia, through bombardments of Belgrad, we are not obliged to pretend that it is pleasant to us, and that we with them have something the general. To these people to us to talk basically there is nothing.

Clearly. Alexey when elections have already ended, or «seems, have ended», you have the moral right to answer me on the following question. At us has somehow developed that politicians had «a mania of self-identification». For example, Timoshenko names itself and all the "democrats", in the others seeing тоталитаристов, gangsters and other bad people. You how the person for a long time working in democratic monitoring, to estimate election campaigns of our candidates could not? From the point of view of democracy …

Well, we will tell so, Yanukovych's campaign was equal enough, not hysterical and even uninteresting. It does not impose, it without провоцирования and forcings. Other business that she a little as offers. It – more in style of democratic traditions. And here other party – all on a hysterics: naked charges, conditions forcing, use, we will tell so, not absolutely correct methods. Plus playing nationalist and ксенофобской cards that basically is inadmissible on democratic elections in the European state of 21 centuries. In the West it very seriously concern and very seriously supervise. Ethnic animosity kindling, opposition of one part of the population another this strong means but if to build the democratic state, what for ссорить parts of one people? Plus this hysteria when constantly declare infringements of the law and falsifications, and there and then these laws break, and try to push falsifications. Know, I without pathetics concern a brand «Maidan ideals» but if to take these ideals it is impossible to be covered sacred and to create dirty and illegal things. If people guess spreading on leaflet polling district, where on the one hand is written how to counteract falsification, and with another – is shown, how correctly it is necessary to fill the bulletin. There the piece of the bulletin with Timoshenko's surname is simply printed and "tick" is already put. It at all propaganda, this mockery at the idea of elections.

Such was in an election day?

Yes, on the first round. In Perejaslave-Khmelnitskiy, in White Church. Or here history with a home voting. Spoke – there will be 17-20 percent. But have passed elections – and how many it has turned out? On the country – 1,5-2 percent. Somewhere there were five, but it is admissible. But there, where Yulia Timoshenko staffs supervised process – there reached 20 %.

That is they "twisted"?

Certainly. Also what turns out? In 2004 have established a trend: «all falsifications do in the east of Ukraine», But I cannot understand, whence such high appearance in the western areas where to 40 % on earnings abroad are. 70-75 % whence undertake? It as?

How?

Elementary «family voting» and a complete control over local election committee. Гастарбайтеры have left, internal passports remained. The member of this family with a pack of such passports comes. And the committee-man considers quantity of passports, gives out corresponding quantity of bulletins, there are put, where it is necessary, "ticks", and all it is thrown in an urn.

You fixed it?

We fixed it and we will fix, but our fixing has no validity. But we, at least, speak about it. So let's be fair – infringements occur everywhere. Here nobody observes game rules, but one party shouts about it only, accusing of it another.

And what prospects of development of a situation?

I can state wishes only. I very much would like, that participants of struggle remained within the limits of a legal field. Street disorders, captures of election committees and staffs of the opponents do not keep within the democracy concept. Also it would not be desirable, that one of the parties has gone a way, протоптанным five years ago. Internal intensity which in this time not that that has not decreased, and on the contrary, has increased and can have irreparable and already irreversible consequences. Lost should agree that has lost, and to do conclusions of the defeat. If the lost repeats the thesis of 2004:« Or I have won, or elections are forged »the country will break up into parts. They push it to it, without reflecting on consequences. It, by the way, concerns everything, not only elections. Take rewarding Bendery. Well what for to the president who already leaves to provoke and offend neighbours. And in a silly way. Tried, obviously, to spit towards Russian Federation, but has not considered a wind, and has got to neighbours on the other hand. In Poland the wave has risen, and it is not known, than will end. Even from the financial point of view. Many public organisations in Poland now are going to initiate litigations, including – and against the Ukrainian state. And, God forbid, at least one of processes will win! When there will be a precedent it is necessary to wait for mass financial claims of successors of victims of" the Volynsk slaughter »about damage compensation. 200 000 it is killed with the consent of management OUN-UPA, at everyone – descendants. And you should know that the Polish people – he forgets nothing. And if they for themselves have solved something, will achieve necessarily. Here so the leaving president has created to the country additional problems. And its former colleagues go by same means. They do not think of the country future, it the main thing to solve for itself momentary questions: I – and all. More anybody. Because, if will be not so, against me claims will follow, confiscation and whether has not enough that else. But this my subjective opinion.

Alexey, in summary, tell, whether the truth that among experts political strike in Ukraine is perceived by many only as struggle for the control over resource and financial streams. All the rest – a peel of "democratic rhetoric». Similar?

Oh, similar.

Andrey Ganzha talked